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Ian Jobling's avatar

This is a useful discussion of misunderstandings of determinism and of the incoherence of libertarianism. I am a determinist myself, and I have written about how we can justify moral judgments and criminal incarceration even if we don't hold people morally responsible for their actions. https://open.substack.com/pub/eclecticinquiries/p/against-moral-responsibility-and?r=4952v2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false

Daniel Grey's avatar

And part 2. Been a while since I had to pull from my determinism database of reasons not to believe it yet! That’s the thing, I am not eliminating the possibility it is true, only that at the moment it seems highly unlikely. The determinists have a lot of work to do to demonstrate it. They have not done enough to really entertain it as a serious contender right now. Do better if you want to advance the cause. But then again, if it is true, it was always going to happen anyway…

Document 2 Teardown:

"Determinism says that since your actions have effects, what you do matters to how things turn out."

"What you do" implies you're doing something. If determinism is true, you're not doing anything—things are happening through you. The verb "do" smuggles in agency. You can't have it both ways.

"And this is true even though your driving carefully or not is itself determined, for instance by this very observation about it mattering!"

So your article determined my behavior? Then why write it? If reading it was going to happen anyway, and my response was going to happen anyway, you're not informing anyone. You're just a domino hitting other dominoes. Why does the domino think it's teaching?

"You don't have to be outside the causal stream for your actions to matter and make a difference."

If you're inside the causal stream, they're not "your" actions. They're the stream's actions happening at your location. Ownership requires an owner. Determinism eliminates the owner.

"It makes you very sensitive to the causal regularities you've gleaned about the world"

"You've gleaned" — who gleaned? The gleaning was determined. There's no "you" doing the gleaning. There's just gleaning happening. Your language keeps contradicting your thesis.

"You cannot just sit quietly and wait for your neurons to fire. You cannot wait for determinism to happen. You must, and will of course, deliberate and act."

Quoting Morse doesn't resolve the problem. "You must" is a command. Commands assume the recipient can choose to comply or not. If I "will of course" deliberate and act, then the command is meaningless—it was going to happen anyway. Why issue commands in a determined universe?

"That you are determined not to wait (note both senses apply!) given your various needs and desires, isn't an infringement of your autonomy but an expression of it."

Autonomy means self-governance. If your needs and desires are determined, you didn't choose them. If you didn't choose them, you're not governing yourself—you're being governed by prior causes. That's the opposite of autonomy. You're redefining the word to mean its opposite.

"And remember: determinism doesn't mean your actions are pre-determined since they don't happen until you act."

This is semantic games. "Pre-determined" vs "determined" is a temporal distinction, not a causal one. If all prior conditions necessitate the outcome, the outcome is fixed whether you call it "pre" or not. The action was always going to happen exactly as it did. Calling it "not pre-determined" because it hasn't happened yet is like saying the end of a movie isn't predetermined because you haven't watched it yet. The film is already made.

"First, it's clear that even in an entirely deterministic world, we still retain our strong desires for certain basic outcomes"

"We retain" — retention implies holding onto something. Who's holding? If desires are determined, we don't retain them. They're installed. You're using language of possession and agency to describe a system without either.

"So the motives we have for maintaining public safety and a flourishing society are still in place"

The motives being "in place" doesn't justify anything. A psychopath's motives are also "in place." Hitler's motives were "in place." Motive existence ≠ motive justification. If everything is determined, so were the worst atrocities. You can't selectively celebrate the "good" motives without acknowledging the "bad" ones had equal causal legitimacy.

"determinism isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card"

Why not? If I literally could not have done otherwise, on what grounds do you punish me? You can say "to shape future behavior" — but my future behavior is also determined. Either punishment changes something (implying indeterminism in the response) or it doesn't (making it pointless). Pick one.

"People, after all, are caused to be good or bad, and our responsibility practices are among the causes."

Then the responsibility practices were determined too. The people implementing them were determined. The outcomes were determined. You're describing a machine and calling it justice. A machine isn't just or unjust. It just runs.

"Some suppose that the only way we can be rational creatures, capable of knowing truths about the world and acting effectively using these truths, is by being causally disconnected from nature in some respect."

Straw man. The alternative isn't "causally disconnected." It's "not fully determined." Influenced by causes but not necessitated by them. You keep ignoring this option.

"any causal disconnection from the world would worsen, not improve, our ability to model it"

Again: influenced ≠ disconnected. A system can receive causal input without that input fully determining the output. That's how feedback systems work. That's how adaptive systems work. You're pretending the only options are "fully determined" or "floating in a void."

"If processes of assessment involved indeterministic elements, that would make them less reliable and rational, not more."

Only if "indeterministic" means "random." Constraint-bounded potentiality is neither determined nor random. Multiple coherent outcomes are possible within constraints, and the system selects among them. That's not randomness. That's relational dynamics.

"Since our cognitive capacities are obviously limited, we are not in a position to predict the future in any detail, determined though it might be. So we necessarily are often surprised by the way events unfold."

Epistemic surprise ≠ ontological novelty. Saying "we can't predict it" doesn't make it novel. If it was always going to happen exactly that way, it's not new—it's just revealed. You're conflating our ignorance with the universe's creativity. Those aren't the same thing.

"The fact that all this flows from prior conditions by routes determined by physical, biological, and other natural laws yet to be discovered subtracts nothing from its originality and newness."

Yes it does. "Originality" implies something that could have been otherwise. If it couldn't have been otherwise, it's not original—it's inevitable. A movie isn't "original" every time you watch it just because you forgot the plot.

"individuals and their causal powers, including their rational capacities, don't disappear on a deterministic understanding of ourselves"

They absolutely do. "Causal powers" implies the individual is doing something. If the individual is fully determined, they're not doing—they're being done to. The "power" is upstream, not in them.

"your beliefs and desires are the explanatorily ineliminable determinants of your behavior"

"Your" beliefs and desires. Determined by what? Prior causes you didn't choose. So they're not yours. They're installed. The language of ownership keeps sneaking back in because without it, the whole framework collapses into nihilism.

"It isn't as if determinism erases the desire for such liberties"

It erases the coherence of wanting them. If I'm determined to want liberty, and you're determined to deny it, neither of us is doing anything. It's just physics. Why should physics care about "liberty"?

"Understanding that we are not free from causes and influences, including those of a political regime, certainly highlights the fact that we can be controlled by policies and propaganda designed to benefit the few, not the many. But it in no way justifies exerting control to such ends."

If determinism is true, the people exerting control were determined to exert it. The policies were determined. The propaganda was determined. You can't say "it doesn't justify" anything—justification is a concept for agents who could do otherwise. You've eliminated those.

"if (as I've never heard happening) a political leader claims they couldn't have done otherwise but be authoritarian, that in no way justifies their actions"

Why not? You just spent two essays saying no one can do otherwise. If that's true for everyone, it's true for authoritarians too. You can't selectively apply determinism to excuse the people you like and condemn the ones you don't.

"explanations don't excuse or justify"

In a deterministic framework, there's no one to excuse or justify to. Excusing and justifying are social practices that assume agents making choices. You've eliminated agents. So you've eliminated the coherence of excuse and justification. You can't have the social practices without the ontology that supports them.

"Alerting folks to the reality that they don't have such metaphysical freedom is thus a bit of progressive political enlightenment."

If they don't have freedom, you can't "alert" them to anything. Alerting assumes they could update their beliefs based on new information. If their beliefs are determined, your "alerting" either changes nothing (they were going to believe what they believe anyway) or it does change something (implying their beliefs weren't fully determined). Again: pick one.

My overall take:

The entire framework is self-undermining. He uses agentic language ("you," "we," "choose," "decide," "retain," "find," "alert") to describe a system he claims has no agents. The moment you remove the agentic language, the essays become incoherent. They're not arguments—they're performances of agency while denying agency exists.

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